TIRANA – Robert Elsie, writer, translator, interpreter and Albanologist, has been studying Albanology for over 30 years, especially the culture, literature and history of Albanians. A valuable contribution of Albanologist Elsie, leads us to the dialectal variants of the Albanian language. He has been tracking all the dialectal variants since 1999, in every corner of state Albania, among the Albanians of Montenegro and Macedonia, in Kosovo! He has recorded the dialectal variants of the Arbëresh of Italy, of the Albanians in Greece, Croatia, Turkey, Bulgaria…!
In an interview with journalist Anisa Ymeri, on the show 'In the Temple' on Albanian television News24, talks about recorded dialect variants; About Albania and Albanians; About Milosevic and The Hague; About noisy Tirana….
Interviewed: Anisa YMERI
A. Ymeri: You were in Tirana with history students and historians about oral history, a discipline that is distant for Albania, but which you actually say is very important. What is the importance of witnessing, of memory through a process that we do not know.
R.Elsie: For me, it is more important in Albania than in other countries, because the written sources are few. Albania does not have a long tradition of writing. The history of Albania was written by foreigners and not by Albanians, but there is a lot of collective memory in the Albanian people and we must also use the memory of the people to complete the written history. There is a lot to do to complete the collective memory of the people, otherwise history disappears.
A. Ymeri: What did you mean when you emphasized that Albanian historians are dumb?
R.Elsie: I didn't say that historians are dumb, but that it is a dumb people, a people in Europe without a voice, that cannot express itself in Europe because the history of this people has largely disappeared. I said, for example, that the sources, the monasteries, the manuscripts, the libraries, have disappeared... there are not many. There is almost no village in Albania that has not been burned at least once in history, therefore there are no sources that can be touched, there are no such sources.
A. Ymeri: I would like you to outline more of that great truth that you say, that the history of Albania could not have been written by foreigners because Albanians (we know it well, we must admit it) were illiterate...
R.Elsie: Yes, clearly! Illiteracy, backwardness that continues to this day. Compared to other peoples, Albanians are very backward. In Zog's time everyone was illiterate, 80% of men and 100% of women who are the main bearers of popular culture, were like animals. Then what can you expect from a written history.
A. Ymeri: What about Albanian historiography, do you consider it dumb today? To what extent can it be considered such?
R. Elsie: I'm not saying that there are no good historians. Today, for the first time, there are good historians compared to the time of the communist dictatorship (even at that time there were good historians, but with the ideological limitations they had). Now there are good historians and books written with scientific principles, but it's not enough, there is a lot to do on Albanian soil.
A. Ymeri: There is a lot to do, even on an issue you mention…here in Albania there are many who know this, but few articulate it! You said that the History of Chameria was written by Greece…what does that mean?
R. Elsie: Yes! Whoever searches the world for a book about Chameria, about the Chams, either finds nothing, or finds books published in Greece, which have a different principle, a different interest. Books that do not tell the history of the Chams from the Chams' side. There are now several books on the Albanian market, and there are also some publications in English. I myself published a book 2 years ago with documents about Chameria. But I believe that there are many chapters of the history of the Chams that are not known because the collective memory of the Chams has not been taken. There are still Chams in Albania today who have experienced the expulsion, from Chameria, from Greece, who were young at the time, but who have memories. They are the old men and women today... and these people should be recorded, filmed, have the opportunity to narrate, to tell what they have lived, and with some filming, we can unite them in a history of the Chams.
A. Ymeri: Because we definitely need to have an alternative to what Greece has shown the world?
R. Elsie: Definitely! We need to have several histories, more than one history and not all of them the same, this is very important. Let the Greeks write! I am not saying that all Greek historians are propagandists, there are many good historians, but of course everyone has their own direction and interest and I believe that there is room for more activity on the part of the Albanians.
A. Ymeri: And if we stay for a moment with Chameria... what has resulted in all these decades, this non-writing of that part of Albania's history, for such a large and important region that is not part of state Albania?
R. Elsie: The disappearance of the history of the Chams and the disappearance of the history of the Albanians in general. The Albanians claim that they have an ancient history, that they are an ancient people, but in fact where the history is, it is not! It is only slogans.
What do we know about the early history of Albanians? Very little!
What do we know about Albanians in the 18th and 19th centuries? Nothing!
Only at the beginning of the Renaissance period there are sources, there is a path.
What do we know about Albanians throughout the time of Turkey? Where are the historians of Albania during the Ottoman period? There are none! There are only empty slogans!
A.Ymeri: Not only do we not have evidence in this area, but we also do not have evidence of what is one of the greatest values ​​of the nation, the Albanian language. You, for the first time, undertake a project, worthy of an Academy of Sciences, but which bears your name. You document all the dialects, dialectal variants of Albanian, not only in state Albania, and this is an even greater merit. How did you come up with this idea? What excited you so much to undertake this journey?
E. Elsie: I have always been interested in dialects. Since I learned Albanian, I had to understand Albanians from different parts of the Albanian world and I saw that there were many variants. I started to get interested and decided to record people, how they speak today. I am not a dialectologist, a real linguist, but I am interested in how Albanians speak in different parts of the Albanian world. I started the recording project in 1999 and the first recordings were made during the Kosovo War, with refugees from Kosovo who were in Tirana. They talked about the traumas they had, of course! Then, on every trip I made to Albania, I took a recording device with me and we roamed the mountains of Albania, we talked to many shepherds. This is very beautiful! The shepherd has a very beautiful, authentic language, it is not influenced by the literary language, they speak as they speak. Often we stopped on the road with my driver and we talked to a shepherd about the price of sheep. He talks and talks, curses politicians, curses the whole world, the discontent, we are poor…! In fact, I was only interested in the language! At first I wasn't interested in what he said, I was interested in how he said it. But now when I listen to them, some are very interesting in what they say as well.
I have recorded from North to South in Albania, in Kosovo, in Montenegro, in Macedonia, Greece, Italy...but there are very beautiful stories! (http://www.albanianlanguage.net)
A. Ymeri: What stories are you talking about…because we don't know much about dialects! We know where we come from and the standard that is taught in school. What is it like to touch the dialects of Albania? Is it like this in other countries, or is Albania a special case?
R. Elsie: It's about dialectal variants because as we say there are two dialects, Geg and Tosk. But in fact, there are many differences in the Albanian world. A man from Podujevo meets an Albanian from the Peloponnese who speaks Arbëresh, do they understand each other? I don't think so! An Arbëresh from Italy, do you understand him? I say no.
A. Ymeri: You yourself have had a hard time understanding the Arbëresh…
R. Elsie: A lot! I had a very difficult time with the Arbëresh at first. Honestly, I didn't know at first whether they spoke Italian or Albanian. Now, when I listen to the recordings and I've delved a little deeper, I understand them. I didn't understand the Kosovars at first either.
A. Ymeri: Where are the most interesting findings about our dialectal variants? While we were communicating before this interview, I mentioned Croatia, the Albanians there...
R. Elsie: Yes, in Zadar, there is a village in Croatia where a very beautiful, very strong Gegnishte is spoken. There are people there who speak Albanian, we have some recordings. I didn't make them myself, I got them from someone else in Zadar and these findings there are very interesting because Zara is very far from Albanian land.
A. Ymeri: You were not satisfied with the countries where there is an Albanian majority, in Montenegro, in Macedonia, in Kosovo which is the second Albanian country in Europe, in state Albania. You were not satisfied with that and went further to track down the Albanians, where they have their communities. Did you do it to create a complete map, with recordings this time?
R. Elsie: Of course! Of course it will never be complete, but I wanted to present the Albanian language not only here in Albania, but everywhere it is spoken; everywhere where it is the language of Albanian communities (not in the diaspora countries where Albanians have gone after 1990); I wanted to bring the dialectal variants of Albanian communities born there. That's why I went to Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Ukraine, there are different places.
A. Ymeri: What does a documentation and perpetuation of dialectal variants say to us today, to Albanians but also to the world of 2016?
R. Elsie: I say that in 30 years if we meet (if we are alive), it will be clear that these dialects will no longer exist, they will have disappeared! And all Albanians in 30 years will try to speak like Tyrants.
A. Ymeri: Are you sure about this?
R. Elsie: I believe so! There is a lot of pressure, especially among young people. Not only in Albania but also in other European countries. For example, in France everyone wants to speak like in Paris because Paris is Paris and the rest are villagers. The same thing happens in Albania, everyone wants to speak like in the capital.
A. Ymeri: What does our world lose if this happens?
R. Elsie: It is an impoverishment, it is a horror! Because the rich Albanian language with different variants, with very beautiful variants, is disappearing, of course it will disappear. My effort to preserve what is there today.
A. Ymeri: And since we're on the subject of language, I can't help but ask you...after 1990 at least, there's been a lot of discussion about the standard; discussions about the process of what happened; about the changes it needs to undergo today...what's your opinion?
R. Elsie: I'm often asked about this, but I don't have an opinion. I think it's up to Albanians to decide about their own language.
A. Ymeri: What about as a user of Albanian?
R. Elsie: As a user, I learned the literary language, I learned to understand Gheg and different variants… but the rest is a matter for Albanians, if a second Gheg variant is created, as a second standard. Of course, I have to say that there is an advantage to having a common language for everyone, which is respected by everyone for writing, for television, for the media. It is easier that way. But I understand that many people, many Ghegs are unhappy because their language is very far from the standard and they find it difficult to write in the standard and communicate; to be forced to communicate in standard Albanian. I understand this very well.
A. Ymeri: Do you understand, do you understand well? Do you justify their dissatisfaction?
R. Elsie: Yes, yes! I understand but I don't know if creating a different standard than the one you have is a solution. For example, creating a GEG standard in Kosovo, I don't think it would work for Albanians!
A. Ymeri: We will stay with the language for a moment. While I was searching for you, I found a phrase that the most beautiful Albanian language for you is that of Kadare…
R. Elsie: Yes! As far as Albanian literature is concerned, Kadare's language is like honey. It is very beautifully readable, with elaborate, beautiful and sometimes surprising language.
A. Ymeri: You weren't introduced to Albanian through Kadare, were you?
R. Elsie: Of course, he is an author, I have read many Albanian poets and prose writers; I have translated many of them and I have put everything on my website: www.elsie.de so that it is available to everyone who is interested in this. (http://www.elsie.de/en/books.html)
A. Ymeri: Fishta is now known worldwide thanks to your English translation of the work 'Lahuta e Malcis', which is important to us but is now also read in English. Was it difficult to translate this work, written in an Albanian that even we Albanians today have difficulty understanding?
R. Elsie: It was difficult, very difficult. I started Fishta stubbornly, as I do from time to time. The first song went very slowly, but then you get used to the author's language; Fishta is not an author who is easily translated, it is not only the language but the culture of the north, the culture of Shkodra, the Gheg culture that he carries; the connections – how the highlanders think; and I am not a highlander, I am not Gheg, I am not from the North, it is a foreign world for me. I often had difficulty understanding what he was talking about. In addition, I had a lot of problems finding an English word, an English expression that would fit him. Looking for something from the Middle Ages, it didn't work because Fishta is not an author of the Middle Ages. But the translation came out…!
A. Ymeri: Importantly, and what makes you dear to Albanians, is everything you do to show the world, Albanian culture. Is it a difficult mission in the days we live in? Let's keep in mind that it is not so easy to publish, to translate, it is not easy to find the way to reach a capricious reader, if we can call such a reader of the great languages...
R. Elsie: There are some problems. At the beginning, the English world is very big and there is not much interest in other cultures. For a small culture like Albanian culture, it is very difficult to penetrate, to create interest because it is a culture that is not known, it is very difficult. But everything is done with effort, and not only by me!
A. Ymeri: Efforts that are few?
R. Elsie: Of course the Ministry of Culture is making efforts but it is a very big struggle. But I say that more can be done, so that at least Albanian literature becomes more known, so that there is more Albanian literature known in the world. Albanian history is known more and better, but all this depends on translations. I think the big problem is that there are very few foreigners who know Albanian well enough to translate Albanian works, to give Albanians a voice!
A. Ymeri: A voice that Albanians lack? A people that communicates only with themselves, which in my opinion is fatal. But what do we have to say to the world because one side is wanting to speak and the other side is, what do you have to say…! Do we have to say?
R. Elsie: Albanians are a mute people, with a lot of noise from within but from without…but some have something to say while others just make noise and have nothing to say, but there are also many others who have something to say.
A. Ymeri: Albanian literature again… we make a division (perhaps unjustly because of the values ​​that some writers carry) between before the '90s and after the '90s. We can only talk about good literature after the '90s because there are theses that say that little is being created now, there are no new writers who are powerful, who have something to tell us…
R. Elsie: A problem arose in the early 1990s. Before this year there was endless control, political control I mean. Whereas after the 90s, there was no control at all, not even literary control. Anyone who could afford to publish could publish; any child who wanted to publish, if their parents had money, could publish whatever they wanted and that's how they became a poet, a writer. This confused the Albanian reader. In the early 90s and in the middle of these years, there were many publications, but many of them were worthless. Back then, how would the Albanian reader orient themselves? Besides, there is no literary criticism in Albania, there is no tradition of literary criticism. In other countries there are usually literary critics with deep knowledge, who write about books, about the latest publications. Here, of course, there are such, but not in that capacity. I usually suspect that if someone writes about a book, either their neighbor has it, or their relative has it, or it's a financial connection. Usually, a book gets a lot of hype and the next day you don't hear anything anymore, and that makes me suspicious. That's why the Albanian reader doesn't have much faith in the Albanian criticism that exists.
A. Ymeri: What does this bring us? Because we say it is a period of transition but it seems to be taking too long. We are a quarter of a century after communism fell, and if in relation to history it may be only 1 second, for the Albanians who lived in this period, it is several years of life…! Noise, lack of criticism… what kind of imbalance does this disrupt in our national culture?
R. Elsie: Albanians may know this much better than I do, because I also observe what you are saying, a lot of noise in a glass cage; there is a lot of noise inside but it does not come out. Albanians eat each other, fight, argue, make noise, but outside there is only a lot of noise and that is it! They are dumb.
A. Ymeri: What should public policies, the Ministry of Culture and other institutions do to create these translators that you speak of and that do not exist? Because in the opinion of professionals in the field, as you have said, the biggest problem of Albanian literature, which has a very difficult time penetrating other languages, is that there are no literary translators...
R. Elsie: This is a big problem that does not have a quick solution, but it comes very slowly. The foreigners who are interested, who come, who learn about the Albanian language, who are interested in Albanian culture, are very few.
A. Ymeri: You see, the attempt that something can change, outwardly as you like, to observe...
R. Elsie: I know that the Ministry of Culture is doing something. The Minister of Culture is an interpreter herself, a very good one, and being in the field herself, I know that she is making some efforts to promote a translation school. But it is little, she is doing something, but this is a process that takes time, it takes a lot of time. I compare Albania with other Eastern European countries and there have been attempts to encourage translators from abroad; for example, in Poland, Russia, the Czech Republic, they wanted foreigners to come and learn their languages, to translate their literature, even during the communist era. While in Albania this did not happen, Albanians did not want foreigners to come here.
A.Ymeri: However, you came.
R. Elsie: I came on my own accord!
A.Ymeri: At the beginning, quite by chance, without taking Albania seriously at all. Did you think then that Albania would later be your great interest?
R. Elsie: No! No! I came with a professor from Germany. He got a visa in 1978 and came with the students. We came as tourists. We went to the beach in Durrës, for us it was very beautiful, sunny, warm, we enjoyed it. Surrounded by the party's propaganda slogans, long live, long live... it was beautiful. I didn't take it too seriously because I'm not very interested in politics and I just observed and said: Uh, I feel like I'm in a Hollywood movie.
A.Ymeri: Like a Hollywood movie that you didn't take seriously but that later became an important part of your life because you started showing the world a part of Albania. How has this experience of several decades been? What have you discovered from this Albanian world of ours?
R. Elsie: My great effort has been to make Albania known, to be understood. For Albanians to be known and understood. I saw that all this cultural wealth that is not only in Albania but in the entire Albanian world, wherever Albanians live, was unknown in the world. And my effort was to present it in my books, in my publications. I did this because I saw that there were few people with knowledge of the Albanian language, very few people. In the 80s, I started learning Albanian. I worked as an interpreter in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, as a translator for English. There was no one in the ministry who knew the Albanian language and when the need for the Albanian language began, I did that job when negotiations for diplomatic relations between the two countries began, at a time when I didn't know much Albanian. I was even terrified as a poor interpreter at the time, but then I learned better and by learning the language, reading and then talking to people, I learned that there was a lot to make public.
A.Ymeri: But at the beginning you had the fastest contact with Kosovo because that's where you went to improve your Albanian. Today, decades later, can you make a comparison of the differences between Pristina and Tirana?
R. Elsie: There are changes, of course there are. Are there two Albanian cultures? I say there are! But they unite and after 10 years there will be a common culture, but for now, because of the history of the two peoples, I say there are still two different cultures. The Albanian of Kosovo is different.
A.Ymeri: It is different in what way?
R. Elsie: I can't say for sure, but I understand this, I see it...and not only from the language, a difference that you understand immediately. But I say that there are also differences in behavior, culture. I have the impression that the Albanians of Kosovo are slower, they think then they speak...and they speak slowly! While the Albanians here, meanwhile, have said everything, everything, with a lot of noise. They are Mediterranean, lively, southern.
A.Ymeri: During these minutes, you have said the word noise very often. Does this noise of ours here in Albania impress you that much?
R. Elsie: Yes, yes! I live in the North, we are a mixed race people. Watch a TV show, on your TV or anywhere else, where there is a political debate. Is there a moment when there are not at least two or three people speaking at the same time? I don't understand them! Maybe you manage to understand them because you are used to 2 or 3 people speaking at the same time, but I don't understand them. I want to wait for one to speak, then the other and then wait for the third to express his opinion, that's how I understand them. But if it's everyone speaking... I don't know what to do. Do you have this ability to understand them when everyone speaks at the same time?
A.Ymeri: Do we have the ability or the problem?
R. Elsie: I don't know what it is, but I know you manage to understand in this situation!
A.Ymeri: In fact, many Albanians also have trouble understanding the communication conditions you are talking about. But, we moved a little from Kosovo and politics, which, as you point out, does not interest you, however, you were indirectly connected to politics in a very important issue for the Albanian nation, especially for Kosovo, you were an interpreter at the Hague Tribunal. How was that experience for you? Did it make you understand something different about Albanians or was it just a job and that's it!
R. Elsie: Stress first of all, it was a very stressful job. I spent 12 years in The Hague, I started as an interpreter in the Milosevic trial, which was very interesting. I was in the middle of the hall, 2 meters away from Milosevic, but it was very stressful. We couldn't make a mistake because it was the media - but of course we made mistakes because we interpreters are also human. But in addition to a lot of stress, there was also a lot of suffering from time to time. There were terrible stories. Things that touched me. Several times I started crying into the microphone when I was interpreting. An example: Somewhere near Prizren, in Hoxha te madhe or somewhere around, Serbian forces took all the Albanian men, lined them up by the river and ordered them to make Serbian symbols and sing Serbian nationalist songs. One didn't do it! The Serbs shot him. He fell into the water and drowned. The others didn't dare to pull him out. The reason? This man from Kosovo was deaf and mute and did not listen to the order of the Serbian forces.
When I heard this story, I started crying! It was terrible! I couldn't work. The microphone was on. I gave it to my colleague and I cried out loud in the hall. Horror! Horror! It happened often, but in other stories I seem to have gotten used to it. But in the first months it was very difficult.
A.Ymeri: We leave The Hague behind, to talk about another passion of yours, for old photographs. You bring us Albania as we do not know it, as our historians have not shown us, as our researchers have not brought us. How do you manage to follow in their footsteps because many of them are in hidden archives, not easy to find…
R. Elsie: I am interested in photography because photography does not betray you, old photography tells the truth. Whereas words are words. Written history is written history. Whereas a photograph does not lie. They exist, they are in archives but they are not easily accessible because special permissions are needed to use them. But I have found the first collections of photographs in Albanian. Recently I discovered Edith Durham's collection, a collection that is not known in Albania. The English traveler who wrote several books about Albania, also took a small Kodak camera with her. Her photographs are extraordinary. She presented her photographs in London, at the Royal Institute of Anthropology, where she was a member, 100 years ago. There was an evening and she showed them to the members of this institute. After that, the photographs 'disappeared' in the archive. I was lucky in February of this year to go to London, take Edith Durham's photographs and present them, after 100 years, in the same place, at the Royal Institute of Anthropology where we had an evening with the presentation of these photographs. Now we will try to publish an album with these photographs. I have about 30 of her photographs, some of the best, and I want to make them known. (http://www.albanianphotography.net)
A.Ymeri: What are you doing now regarding Albania?
R. Elsie: I have many projects but I don't know if they will be realized so it's better not to talk about them. At the moment I am making an anthology of Albanian folk tales in German, after two books published in English with the famous tales in Albania. Now I am making this in German but it is not my translation, they are translations of some other famous Albanologists, Johann Georg von Hahn, Gustav Majer...!
A.Ymeri: You talk about Albanian media almost every 5 years and now here we are after 5 years in this interview together. In the last interview, you said: I don't live in Albania because it is still almost an Ottoman country... do you still think so?
R. Elsie: Did I say that? Oh, no!
A.Ymeri: Yes, yes…you said it…
R. Elsie: Eh! Actually I said that I can't live in Albania but because I am a private person, I want to have my private life. Whereas here, if I meet someone in the morning and I have a little cough, in the afternoon I go to the other side of Tirana and greet them. He says to me: I heard you have a cough! Gossip, words everywhere…and I want to stay in my cabin in the forest, at the end of the world, where I have my peace. And here in Tirana, of course there is no peace!
A.Ymeri: And there is no peace here... but for Albania, for Tirana in 2016, very noisy as you were careful to tell us throughout the interview, what do you think? Do you think it has become a better city? Worse? More uninhabitable?
R. Elsie: All together! It's better of course. More beautiful than ever, with a fast-paced life. Worse of course because there is environmental pollution, cars, noise, there is no greenery. Albanians will be satisfied when they have cut down the last trees and have only concrete everywhere, everywhere. They are destroying this city and it will be worse in the future, I have the impression for environmental reasons. But I believe that life is good here, those who have patience and nerves, live well here I believe. I come here with pleasure...
A.Ymeri: Why do I have the impression that you come with pleasure and leave with even more pleasure...
R. Elsie: Yes, yes! I'm happy to come and stay for a few days and have a great time, but that's it!
A.Ymeri: Thank you for the pleasure of the conversation…
R. Elsie: It was a pleasure, thank you.

* The interview was broadcast on the show 'Në Tempull' by journalist Anisa Ymeri – Tirana, April 1, 2016
(BalkanWeb)